In this piece, he is responding to a young female engineering student. I am reprinting this with permission from Mr. Day.
_____________________________
This is what the engineering student wrote:
Dear Sir,
I don't think you'll answer me, or read my message... But this is worth a try. I will try very hard to keep polite about all this. It will be difficult, but I'll try.
See, I'm a young woman. I'm currently 20 years old and a student in environmental engineering in one of the best engineering schools in the world. I got in fair and square. I didn't get a special grant for being female or any favors. I have to work my butt off to get good grades in fluid mechanics, calculus, environmental chemistry...
I have had the opportunity to read some of the posts you've written in your blog and I feel very insulted by them. What happened to you that made your brain go this wrong? How can you claim that women's rights are wrong? You defend forbidding abortion by claiming unborn children of rape merit all "the legal protections and rights afforded all other human beings", yet claim that women shouldn't have those same rights because we "ruin everything"?
I am working hard to be an engineer. My goal in life isn't to get married or to stay at home and take care of the children. I am not here on this planet to serve a man and raise his children. I have my own goals and my own motivations.
I would continue, but I have finals to prepare and I've lost enough of my time on you already.
I would wish you a nice day, but it would be a lie.
_____________________________
Here is Mr. Day's response:
Dear AA,
First of all, as a young woman studying engineering, you have very likely been granted special favors whether you know it or not. All those programs designed to encourage young women like you to pursue a career in engineering exist for a reason. And the reason is that most women just don't enjoy engineering the way men do. You're obviously smart, you can do the schoolwork, but it is unlikely that you will want to do the real thing for very long. Assuming you don't drop out in favor of an easier discipline before you graduate, the probabilities indicate that you won't spend much time actually working as an engineer; you'll soon be moved into some sort of management or marketing position. Whether you have been told as much or not, that is the conventional path for smart, educated women like you in the corporate world.
There is no shame in that. I started out in engineering myself. I had the ability, but not the aptitude, and quickly switched to a field I vastly preferred. If you're smart enough, you'll likely figure that out before long. Whatever you do, don't waste your life doing something you don't really enjoy simply because you are capable of doing it. Remember that actual engineering is very, very different than studying engineering, and being very good at the latter is not necessarily indicative of real interest in the former.
Now I'm going to teach you a hard, but very important lesson. You see, I don't care you how feel. I really don't. More importantly, neither does anyone else. Only about 200 people on a planet of 7 billion actually care about your feelings, and that's if you're lucky. The sooner you grasp this lesson, the better off you will be. And since almost no one gives a damn what you do, say, think, or feel, appealing to your feelings when you encounter differences of opinion is not only illogical, but useless.
What happened to me to make my brain go this wrong? The short answer is: living life with my eyes open. Keep in mind that I'm more intelligent than you are. The fact that you can't understand the way I think doesn't make my brain wrong, it merely means you aren't keeping up. But more important is the fact that I'm considerably more experienced than you are. I've had three decades to observe the differences between all those school lessons about valuing equality, diversity, and vibrancy and the way human beings actually behave. Equality is a myth; it doesn't exist anymore than fairies and unicorns do. As for women's rights, well, a young woman as intelligent as you should be able to handle the math that dictates what happens to a society when an insufficient number of young women marry and have children. Since women's rights are very strongly correlated with demographic decline, they are not sustainable and are, in fact, societally deleterious. They are not so much wrong as fatal when viewed from the macro perspective.
I do believe women should have the same legal rights and protections afforded to unborn children. There is no contradiction there. You see, I don't believe that unborn children should be given the right to vote or permitted to murder other unborn children either.
I understand you have your own goals. That's fine. The problem is that women are not only valuable to society, they are invaluable. They are necessary. The one and only thing both society and the human race actually need from you is for you to marry and raise children. If you're not going to do that, then it really doesn't matter if you're going to become a human resources manager with an engineering degree or drop out of school and become a stripper. If you're only going to do what any man of similar capabilities can do, then you are an evolutionary dead end and as unimportant to society as the average man is.
In the entire history of the human race, the actions of a few thousand men have actually made much of a difference one way or the other. If that. But without women deciding to marry and have children, the species would die out. Do you really want to limit yourself to the same sort of irrelevance as the average man?
Another thing you have no reason to know is that young women are reliably bad at foreseeing what they will want to do in the near future. I graduated with a number of women like you. None of them thought they were interested in marriage and children until they were about 27. Then they suddenly changed their minds and some of them were very upset that they had spent the previous ten years pursuing goals that were now unimportant to them. I even wrote a column about it called Spiting Their Pretty Faces back in 2003, you can google it. Think about 2003. You were ten. Are your goals the same now as they were then? If not, then how can you be certain that your goals, and your opinion about marriage and children, will be the same when you are 30?
In any event, I wish you good fortune regardless of what path you eventually choose.
Regards, etc.
Vox
_____________________________
I thought Mr. Day made some interesting, if harsh, observations.
Thoughts on this? Is he being unfair? Honest? Truthful? Hateful?
The last two sentences of her rant reveal her for what she is.
ReplyDeleteShe is a troll.
If she was truly worried about her finals and chasing her goals and desires, then why even bother ready this man's thoughts to begin with?
Ding!Threadwinner! :)
DeleteOne might also marvel at the well developed sense of adversary and hostility for one of such tender years as this '20 year old.'
lol
A. McSp
Wow. What a read. Needs to be read by all. Honest? Yes, unfair? Life's not fair. Hateful? Nah. Makes me think about my past and how I've changed, and I'm just an "Irrelevant Average Man"!
ReplyDeleteI really enjoy reading things like this, it reminds me of when I was an over the top feminist in my early 20's , and found my Grandmothers college Gvernment book which at great length gave the pro and con arguements on the subject of the womens vote which had just passed the year previous. I actally found myself in complete agreement with believing that women should not have the vote. I never miss a vote bUT my husband and I talk at great length about everything and then I vote the same as he does, if we weren't in agreement it would point out a huge flaw in OUR world view and plan for OUR family in particular. I think this kind of thinking about life and society is uncommon , but Vox Day seems to have nailed it , even if it is uncomfortable or downright painfull probably for anyone born in the last 50 years or so. Sometimes truth hurts.Karen Jones
ReplyDeleteThe truth hurts. But I'd much rather be told the truth than lies. Although it seems that this young woman is clutching to the lies told to her by "society". I'd say I hope she changes, or at least eventually acknowledges (after a few more years of maturity) that Vox Day is correct......but like him, I am one of those 7 billion people who really doesn't care how she feels.
ReplyDeleteI am a college-educated woman and as such feel that Mr. Day's comments, while demographically correct (women are definitely crucial in reproductive terms to the survival of the species) are not necessarily completely correct. I worked in my field for over ten years and then married and had two children. I stayed home with them and worked part-time from the house after we were done with our home-schooling for the day. My field was not engineering, it was music, but by giving private lessons at home I have enriched many lives. By being an educated woman I am able to enrich my children's lives as well. I agree with the young lady that having and raising children does not have to be the ENTIRE goal of one's life - most women do have the desire to do something else before and after that time period, and they should have the opportunity to do so. If Mr. Day is claiming women's education is wasted because they will be taking a break from working at some time in their lives, he is completely wrong. His comment about knowing what her goals would be in 10 years was frankly offensive. Many men change their minds too, it is not a strictly feminine prerogative.
ReplyDeleteIn pro-life terms he is correct, the life of the unborn child is inviolate unless there is a clear and definite threat to the life of the mother such as a tubal pregnancy. In that case we are trying not to lose both lives. But to say that women should not vote is ludicrous. The past two elections have shown us that men can be as irrational as women when it comes to political candidates.
Great post!!
DeleteMy thoughts exactly!
DeleteWhat she said! And while all of us dream of having chivalrous, faithful husbands...sadly, it is often not the case. Med don't wear badges that say "Hey, I'm a philanderer" and many a woman has been left to fend for herself and children after finding out that he won't keep it in his pants. There is more than one reason a woman should be educated.
DeleteMed = Men... sorry, typo.
DeleteHmm. Not unfair or hateful. I thought he was dead on, honest and truthful. Of course, I am seeing this from the eyes of a 64-year-old relatively smart female, who definitely doesn't think the same way my 20-year-old self did.
ReplyDeleteI think that there are a few gems in his piece, but there is a lot of misguided spite and general grumpiness in there as well.
ReplyDeleteI am someone who thinks that the feminist movement has both helped our society open our eyes to a lot of the gender prejudices that societies have had over time, but it has done a ton of irreparable damage to the feminine members of our society as well.
As the father of two daughters and a son, I struggle to find the right balance between realism "Only about 200 people on a planet of 7 billion actually care about your feelings, and that's if you're lucky." vs optimism. This world is a cold, harsh place, and sometimes things like that need to be said. Some of the comments by the letter writer, "I am not here on this planet to serve a man and raise his children.", are just as harsh and misguided as some of what Vox says.
My take on it? I think that we should raise our daughters to go after what they want. Don't take "you can't do that, you're a woman" from anyone. I think that we should also help them understand some of the items that Vox has said that are true. That it is likely that they end up in their early to mid thirties thinking that the career isn't fulfilling and then it is often MUCH harder to find the kind of person that they want to be with. That may not be "right", but it is often reality.
What I hope for my kids is that they decide to go into business for themselves. Start small businesses and be the captains of their own ships. I really like what your family is doing, what Enola's family is doing. I think that whether or not kids go to college, that they need to learn marketable skills and practice those skills. If one or both of my daughters decide that they never want to marry and pursue a lifelong career -- more power to them. If they want to marry early and raise wonderful families -- more power to them. I will try to teach them about my experiences and give them a well rounded perspective regarding the world they live in.
I personally don't feel that "the only thing a woman should be doing is serving her husband and raising her kids". Is that a noble thing to do and are some women called to do that? Sure, and that is totally fine. As someone who has grown up during the feminist movement, I'm glad that my view of marriage is a partnership rather than a dictatorship. Am I still the head of our household when that role is appropriate? Yes. Most of the time, it's teamwork and a partnership.
I'm currently working with my wife to get her home business started and can't wait until she can devote more energy to it. Right now, it's all she can do to keep up with twin 4 year old little girls and a 6 month old little boy.
That was a long-winded way of saying, yes, I think that Vox touches on some important, real, truths. I do think that a lot of what he said is from a single perspective (double entendre here) and therefore necessarily limited. I also think that his style is direct and only suited for certain types of discourse.
Let's encourage our daughters to be who they want to be, but help them understand that "the world" teaches them a false sense of what is most important.
I'd have to say...from my point of view, as a Christian mother, it is more important to me that my children be who GOD wants them to be, vs whatever thry want to be. My worldview doesn't just let them follow their own paths, but to stay true and follow their Maker on HIS path...which is the path He created exactly for them. This will solve more of their problems than me telling them to follow their heart/dreams/wants ("the heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked....").
DeleteThe girl who wrote in IS following her dreams of who she wants to be. Problem is, she was created for a different purpose, and will not find the fulfillment she thinks is out there.
How do you know that she was created for a different purpose? You spoke to God about her life purpose? You know, not every woman mentioned in the Bible was able to have children and yet God created them. Following your way of thinking, what was the point of their life? Are you saying God made a mistake in creating them since they were unable to reproduce? You seem to be passing judgement on this young woman.
DeleteOne of the unintended results of affirmative action is a lot of people were placed in or given advantages to get into positions that they were incompetent to hold. I'm sorry to have to say that I worry about doctors who are female or from a minority. They may be very competent but the odds favor that they were simply black or female in a system that required black and female quotas.
ReplyDeleteOne of the things Vox alluded to is that engineers are very different from 99% of the population. This applies to computer geeks and a handful of other careers as well. Probably if you were not hacking code at 9 years old and spending 6-12 hours a day on a computer before you were 14 then you aren't and never will be a computer geek. The advertisements for training youy see on TV are wrong they cannot turn you into a computer geek. If you didn't get your first chemistry set at age 8 or PV cells at age 9 or an erector set at age 6 maybe you really aren't engineer material. You can indeed get a degree in engineering in college and if you are someone eligible for affirmative action your professors won't fail you even if you don't show up for classes, but unless you eat, sleep and breathe math or computers or physics, or chemistry, etc. you are not and will never be an engineer. The "good" news is you can work in the field and especially if you are a female or minority; companies will hire you to keep the government off their back. Of course we will all pay for the dead weight in higher taxes and higher costs for consumer goods but isn't "equality/preferences" worth it...
One of the unintended results of affirmative action is a lot of people were placed in or given advantages to get into positions that they were incompetent to hold. I'm sorry to have to say that I worry about doctors who are female or from a minority. They may be very competent but the odds favor that they were simply black or female in a system that required black and female quotas.
ReplyDeleteOne of the things Vox alluded to is that engineers are very different from 99% of the population. This applies to computer geeks and a handful of other careers as well. Probably if you were not hacking code at 9 years old and spending 6-12 hours a day on a computer before you were 14 then you aren't and never will be a computer geek. The advertisements for training youy see on TV are wrong they cannot turn you into a computer geek. If you didn't get your first chemistry set at age 8 or PV cells at age 9 or an erector set at age 6 maybe you really aren't engineer material. You can indeed get a degree in engineering in college and if you are someone eligible for affirmative action your professors won't fail you even if you don't show up for classes, but unless you eat, sleep and breathe math or computers or physics, or chemistry, etc. you are not and will never be an engineer. The "good" news is you can work in the field and especially if you are a female or minority; companies will hire you to keep the government off their back. Of course we will all pay for the dead weight in higher taxes and higher costs for consumer goods but isn't "equality/preferences" worth it...
I'm a 63 year old man. Due to my health I consider myself an "Old Man." I don't think I'm going to be around for many more years. Am I upset? Not even a little!
ReplyDeleteI was drafted into the Army in 1968 when I got a letter from the President. I had no choice and even though I was the son of a retired Army Warrant Officer I had no desire to go into the military. Yet I answered the call because growing up as a Southerner, any alternative was unthinkable.
I went in the Army as a Private. With no intent to stay in the Army I retired 28 years later as a Colonel. Still don't know how that happened other than the fact that I ALWAYS placed COUNTRY and MISSION first. The I went to work with my home state and retired 15 years later in a senior position after many promotions.
Did I ever think I was ENTITLED to anything that ever happened to me? NO!
I got where I am by hard work and effort. Not because I was EVER given anything.
Young Lady, I wish you the best but I have yet to ever meet anyone your age that had any clue as to what they actually wanted at your age versus what they wanted 10-15-20 years later.
Please listen to your elders. They have the ACTUAL experience and knowledge that you, just like most folks your age only THINK they have.
May GOD bless you and protect you. I will not say "Good Luck" because luck has very little to do with it...
The Old Man in Florida...
Bravo!
DeleteUm, wow. I went to Voxy-boy's website to peruse a bit, and can say I'm glad I've never met the gent, glad my daughter does not have to be exposed to his rantings.
ReplyDeleteLet me put my credentials out there as insufferably clear as Vox-McBoy does. Genius level IQ? Check, and not at the Mensa floor. Years of living experience? Unfortunately check, wish it weren't so many. Now some credentials he doesn't have: woman, wife, mother. And one more. I was raised by a man with beliefs like Voxy here - that the blackest day in America was the day women were granted the right to vote. That women are good for only gettin' and raisin' kids. That he (dad) was a flippin' genius, and women were fortunate that they were smart enough to feed themselves. A man like this should never be allowed to have any influence over a girl child. Since they don't believe in any form of sexual equality, then it is not possible for a daughter (or wife) to be as smart, if not smarter, than them. In my case, it led to constant psychological, emotional and, at times, physical abuse in order to prove how far down the totem pole I was in regards to any man and in particular to my dad.
Yes women are necessary to the perpetuation of the human race. I gave up working a full time career to take care of my kiddos, and did it gladly going on 14 years now. His apparent assertions that child-bearing and rearing are the only proper functions for a woman, even down to a stated bias against women voting, is appalling. His assumption that this student couldn't have *possibly* made it into engineering on her own merits is incredibly insulting.
I have a 12 year old 7th grade daughter with an IQ above mine, who has already finished 9th grade Algebra I, 8th grade English and will have over half of her classes in the high school next year. AT AGE 12. She's not only first chair in 2 different bands, she's a member of the school's science team and appeared in both All County Band and All County Choir (by merit of audition). She played sweeper on the middle school soccer team, and had more playing time than any boy on her team (even though they were ALL older than her.) Tell me she didn't do that on her own merit, Voxy-boy, I dare you!
And guess what? She wants to be a scientist or engineer, because the fields interest her so much. Oh, and she knows what engineering actually is, because she had an electrical engineer and HAM radio fanatic as a father. HE encourages her interest.
Does this mean that she'll never be a mother, or she'll not choose to stay home to raise her own children someday? Absolutely not. I hope she does someday, because it would be a blow to the genetic pool if she didn't. But I'd darn well trust her vote over some idiotic male liberal.
As a final note, I'm clearing the steam from my ears, because the one thing I can agree with Voxy on is this. Not that many people care what the heck he thinks. I'm momentarily angry for having read such balderdash. But in the grand scheme of things, it passes, it's forgotten, and the number of people who give a crappola fades.
Cueing up Helen Reddy....
DeleteWatch out guys.... They'll be burning their bras any moment now.
Well, that would be just plain stupid. At my age, burning your bra only leads to sagging.
DeleteI believe I have some reason to roar (I'm assuming that's your cutsie Helen Reddy reference) since the black and white opinion that Vox holds has done irreparable harm to me when wielded like a cudgel by my parent.
After reading your post, I find "genius level IQ" highly unlikely. "Daddy issues" is very believable though.
DeleteBrilliant post! Congrats to your daughter. I hope she does get married and have kids. Chances are good that they will also be as smart(or smarter) as you, your husband, and your daughter. Hopefully she will have lots of very smart/brilliant children to offset the cavemen genes of voxydude and some of these responders!!
DeleteWow, you have a huge chip on your shoulder. Vox never said that women are second-class citizens; he in fact asked the girl whether she wanted to merely do what any guy could do or to do something special, raise children. He pointed out the need for women to marry and have children in order to propagate the species and the need for this woman to think further ahead than her degree.
DeleteTo anonymous 10:37am. Yes he did infer, actually no citizenship status to women. His quote on women voting (and abortion):
Delete"I do believe women should have the same legal rights and protections afforded to unborn children. There is no contradiction there. You see, I don't believe that unborn children should be given the right to vote or permitted to murder other unborn children either."
Unborn children should not be given the right to vote ... either. Just as he believes a woman should not have the right to vote. To be honest, not all of my opinion comes from this one posting of his. I actually headed to his blog and read several of his posting to see where his thinking was really at.
Anonymous 9:38 and 11:59. Love the hiding behind Anonymous.
DeleteYes I have daddy issues, and I acknowledge that. So, no I won't hide behind that. But I know better than most what a mindset like Vox's can do when held by a person in power.
Genius IQ? I often doubt myself, but if numbers don't lie, high 140s certainly fit the bill. So does testing in the 99th percentile of any standardized test I've taken. My regret is having ability to make any practical use of that IQ beaten out of me.
Hi, Beckybeq - your posts are interesting, and I appreciate you sharing the viewpoint of someone who actually had to live with a "Vox". Congratulations on doing better for your own child.
DeleteIt's interesting that the Anonymous posts at 9:38, 11:59 and 10:37 are all ad hominem attacks - the most immature and meaningless response possible. Sniggering irrelevance, personal attacks and demonstrated lack of reading skills. It seems to be a common behavior among the Vox believers - sidetrack the discussion to personal attacks and substitute personal opinion for facts. May I suggest that you ignore them? They post those things to belittle you and mock you - they're not interested in learning or understanding. You have interesting things to say, and an honest way of posting. Please don't waste your valuable time responding to people who won't try to meet you halfway. Have a great weekend -
He is clearly the King of the compost pile.
ReplyDeleteI am going over and checking out Vox's site as soon as I hit enter on this comment.
ReplyDeleteWe waste literally Billions and Trillions of dollars and resources to create a fantasy world for irresponsible females who 99 times out of 100 completely waste the special treatment they supposedly craved.
We oppress our young men and boys from day one in the indoctrination camps known as public education and that harpy wants to claim she did it all on her own? Ya all on her own while the real competition was squashed before it could even get off the ground.
Remove government welfare in the form of preferential female and minority hiring and educational spending then talk about making it "all on your own".
I believe he is being a little harsh; there are women who enjoy engineering and make it a lifelong career - but most don't. As an engineer myself, MOST (over 75%) of women who start engineering programs switch to other majors before graduation. Note that many men do also; the standard advice is to start in engineering since it is easy to transfer out and very difficult to transfer in.
ReplyDeleteHowever I think Mr. Day is right on in his other critiques of this (apparently fairly liberal) young women. She only THINKS she knows what she wants to do in life - that will almost certainly change over time, and her views will most likely change over time as well - studies show that liberal single women tend to become more conservative over time, especially if they get married and have kids.
He has an EXCELLENT point about how most people don't really care about your feelings. It is harsh, but realistic and something that young people need to understand before they start working.
"I believe he is being a little harsh".
DeleteI think you missed the point. She was being harsh he merely replied. His tone was in fact less harsh and his words more informative then hers.
I believe he is being a little harsh; there are women who enjoy engineering and make it a lifelong career - but most don't. As an engineer myself, MOST (over 75%) of women who start engineering programs switch to other majors before graduation. Note that many men do also; the standard advice is to start in engineering since it is easy to transfer out and very difficult to transfer in.
ReplyDeleteHowever I think Mr. Day is right on in his other critiques of this (apparently fairly liberal) young women. She only THINKS she knows what she wants to do in life - that will almost certainly change over time, and her views will most likely change over time as well - studies show that liberal single women tend to become more conservative over time, especially if they get married and have kids.
He has an EXCELLENT point about how most people don't really care about your feelings. It is harsh, but realistic and something that young people need to understand before they start working.
I think Vox hit the nail right on the head! I greatly enjoyed reading this and I think he was a gentleman in his response!
ReplyDeleteHmm... my first thought was that Mr. Vox has obliviously not read Carnegie's How to Win Friends and Influence People. All joking aside, there are some truths to his statements, but with caveats.
ReplyDeleteFirst, I don't think changing goals is strictly a female phenomenon. Many 20 year old males also find themselves in a quandary ten, fifteen years later (hence the stereotypical "mid-life crisis")
Secondly, as a female engineer (magna cum laude, while working and paying my own way through college, thank you very much) I think I am in a position to address some of his comments. Yes, there are some women/minorities that are hired to meet quotas. There are also some non-minorities who are hired because of who their daddies are or what fraternity they were in.. That is life. Not fair, but no-one ever said life was fair. You quickly realize who was competent and who is not. Math and science are pretty factual in nature. You perform or you don't.
Third, he speaks as if getting an education is wasted if you choose to be a stay at home mom and raise children. Why would one want someone who is ignorant and uneducated raising the next generation? Now, please don't misunderstand me....you do *not* have a college education to be educated, and I that is not what I am saying! But to regulate someone's potential strictly to their anatomical parts is simple-minded. Not to mention, tragedies happen. Husbands become unfaithful. Having a degree/training to support your family *is* important....at least based on my experience and being able to help your children with their math homework is a nice perk...
Fourth, he is correct that many women do not factor in their (either current or potential) desire to have a family when looking at their career options. It's something I caution my own daughters about even though they still in elementary school. Worse still is when a couple doesn't factor this desire (or the desire to have a parent at home full time) when they are starting out in life....they get into the debt trap. So it's not just a female thing- more due to lack of wisdom (in either own life experiences or listening to others)
Finally, and perhaps most importantly, this was both written and responded by two parties unwilling to attempt to see the others point of view (hence the inflammatory language on both sides).
If I were talking with this young lady, I would first caution her against "environmental" engineering...it's a limited field, and having a "pure" engineering degree in civil, chemical, electrical is better- especially in today's economic environment. Secondly, I would gently ask her how she sees her death....is she surrounded by family and friends, or is it just a mention in a paper somewhere? Then, work backwards from how she wants that life to look like when she dies. It’s a powerful exercise, and will help with many life decisions.
Thank you Southern, I think you were more, um, polite than I might have been above. Want a smart kid to mentor? (see above mentioned 12 year old)
DeleteOne of the most conservative churches I've seen (Latter Day Saints) had President Hinckley (last Prophet) speak about girls and education. He encouraged young women to get their college degrees. His reasoning was that, as much as the church supported marriage and kids, there is always the possibility that the husband would not be able to support the family. (Disability, death, that kind of thing) At that point, a woman needed the skills to "mind the store" at support her family.
I am also teaching my children that "you can't have it all". And anyone who tells you that you can is lying and not telling you who gets shortchanged in the deal. But that does not mean that you can't have it all in pieces. I enjoyed working and getting my master's degree when I was young. When we had children, I set it aside to be a full time mom. Hubby and I had planned on my being a mommy from our first date, and my education and employment experience reflected those goals.
Wow, You just made me take a mental check on my life with the "how do you see your death" comment. Good one.
DeleteVery good post! I always wanted to be a stay at home mom but grew up in an era where that was frowned upon so I needed to go to college. I wanted to do secretarial work, but, my mother, who was a secretary, nixed that idea. It took me a while to get through undergrad and grad school as I really had trouble figuring out what to major in! But, I ended up with my Master's in Audiology and worked in that field for 10 years. I did finally throw in the towel and quit to stay home with the kids much to my engineer husband's dismay. He wanted me to continue working but I couldn't handle doing everything at home and at the office while he traveled internationally for weeks and months at a time. It was too much for me personally. And, I would like to say that I do not for one minute think any less of moms who work. I say kudos to them. I enjoyed the socialization that working afforded me on a daily basis and still get together with the nurses, doctors, and office staff but I enjoy working only one full time job now. That was my choice, my life path. I am very involved in helping my daughters figure out what their abilities are and helping them look for careers in fields that are expected to have jobs available and that will pay well. Although my husband and I have been married for 25 years, I know other families where the husband has died or left the family and those moms are left to provide for the kids. Females need a career to fall back on, it is just a fact of life.
DeleteIf all women became wives and mothers Vox might have a point, but they don't. There has always been a segment of women that do not marry for whatever reason and the lives of those women were little more than that of subservience and poverty before the age of feminism. Added to that were widows and abandoned women. It is for these women that the right to vote and the right to equality are necessary and good.
ReplyDeleteTo pretend these women don't exist or are not deserving of the same rights and protections all free people enjoy smacks of an arrogance an intelligent and self-possessed man would not claim. A person of civility and propriety would treat even a misguided woman with respect instead of scorn smacking of an impotent rage at that which he cannot fathom even with his vast intellect and education.
What do I know? I'm just a housewife. Please excuse me while I perform some advanced chemistry and physics to prepare the meal followed by some engineering out in the garden. ;)
Two points:
ReplyDelete1) Women are too important to waste on men's jobs.
2) Today's young women have been raised to be society's darlings. They need to be told they aint so special. I don't care what they think either. Sound bad? I doubt they care what I think.
Huggs..
Society's darlings? Yeah, ok. You had all female teaches at a public school, and your were treated poorly.=(
DeleteYour right, I don't care what you think.
Same thing can definitely be said about today's young men!!
DeleteI am by no means a feminist, but I do believe that a marriage is a partnership. Neither spouse should make major decisions alone. If one spouse cannot stomach something the other wants, there should be compromise on both sides. Women can contribute to an intelligent conversation and decision making. All but the most base men should find comfort in the fact that the women they chose to wed is more than a domesticated work animal meant for breeding.
ReplyDeleteI would like to know your thoughts Mrs. Lewis? Do you believe women should have no say in anything except child raising and housekeeping (and not even the final say on these)? Do you TRULY feel that women should not be allowed to vote? Are women ALL to emotional to make a rational decision on their own, if not, should All women be denied the right because of the ones who are?
J.P.A.
How about doing it The Almighty's way - KJ Holy Scripture:
DeleteBut I would have you know, that the head of EVERY man is Christ; and the head of THE woman is THE man; and the head of Christ is God.
II Corinthians 11:3 Emphasis added.
If God is head over Christ who are women to complain besides there are blessings upon blessings when it is done God's way! If this would be the norm in the land perhaps we would not see sodomy on the rise have you ever noticed how the jobs that were held by mostly men are now taken over by women?! Despicable!
I never said not to do it the Almighty's way, and you've got your scriptures wrong Nancy.
DeleteI would still like to know your opinion Mrs. Lewis, or are we commenters to offer ours without reciprocation? "Interesting" does not an opinion make.
J.P.A.
Strictly your opinion! I care what the Most High
Deletethinks!
Nancy,
DeletePlease tell us specfically how the KJ became the Almighty's holy scripture. Not knocking the word, just curious of your POV on how that particular version, or any specific denomination, became THE word or authority.
I could take your point a little more seriously if it weren't for the fact that many of the men that claim to be under the headship of Christ are running around on their wives, yes even pastors.
Now that is a truly despicable!
The KJV is a good translation of the Holy Scriptures, just not the only one. I use the ESV, KJV or the NAS. The point is they all say the same thing regarding the headship of Christ. And just because some men (or women) claim to be under His headship, if they are not living like they are, then they are sinning and it is despicable. The proof is not in the saying, it's in the doing (living according the God's Word). It doesn't change the truth of scripture, just because some choose to rebel against it.
DeleteJane
Hah....good for Mr Vox... he has been blunt, but truthful. Anyone over the age of 30 knows what he says to be true. The young lady will, hopefully, grow and evolve and learn what life is really about and what parts of it are meaningful and what parts are just passing time. And by the way, if a young woman marries and raise a man's children.... they would most likely be her children as well... and whether she realizes it or not... or unless there is something seriously wrong with her chemical make up... she will love and protect them with her life... that's just the nature of it... like it or believe it... it is true.
ReplyDeleteHah....good for Mr Vox... he has been blunt, but truthful. Anyone over the age of 30 knows what he says to be true. The young lady will, hopefully, grow and evolve and learn what life is really about and what parts of it are meaningful and what parts are just passing time. And by the way, if a young woman marries and raise a man's children.... they would most likely be her children as well... and whether she realizes it or not... or unless there is something seriously wrong with her chemical make up... she will love and protect them with her life... that's just the nature of it... like it or believe it... it is true.
ReplyDeleteMy mind stalled at "I'm more intelligent than you are"-How in the heck did you come up with that? I do believe perhaps you have been drinking your own home brew. Leave the kid alone-after all; in 30 years she'll have her own experiences to pass on. Imagine if as an engineer she designed something to contribute to the salvation of man-kind. Truthfully she deserves kudos for putting herself out there. Here's to her future. NurseClaudia
ReplyDeleteFrom a post about the rampant rape of women in India by "VOX"
ReplyDeleteTitle "Men have gone berserk"
"Who could have possibly seen the likelihood of young men going berserk in a society where sex ratios are increasingly out of whack?"...... What I get out of this sarcastic statement.........Who can expect men to control themselves. There are so many men and so few women.
"In this case, it is the pro-abortion position that is leading to more rapes in India". ....What I get..... Those women think differently than the men so of course they are going to be raped, and rightly so.
The world is quite fortunate that India's excess male population appears to be inclined to occupy itself in pursuit of gang rape, considering that the more customary outlet is foreign invasion..... what I get.....Be glad that Indian men are gang raping women, otherwise they might invade some other country and there might be fighting.
This is a Christian man?
The last paragraph is a quote of a rapist about why he rapes. To control women and to show all those women that they have no control.
I admit that I have not memorized the bible and though I do read my bible more than a lot of the population, I do not recall raping for punishment being what Jesus taught. I have not read many of Vox's posts. That was the third random post I came upon, but I will not be reading more.
And if men can't control themselves, such a lack of maturity and reason surely undermines his premise that only men should have the vote. And yet he claims to be a genius....
DeleteI cannot say I have ever read that man's blog, nor do I think I want to. I do agree with some of his points, but others seem harsh and over-the-top, but apparently that is how he writes and blogs, so to him they probably don't seem harsh.
ReplyDeleteA very mixed bag. An adult who does not have a right to vote is a slave. While traditional female roles are looked down upon and that may be linked to other problems in society, slavery is not the moral and Christian answer to those problems.
ReplyDeleteWhile a property or business owner who must bend to mob rule voting by those with no skin in the game are slaves as well.
DeleteThe elddrly non property owners and single mothers who live in gov. housing in the North of our county continued to vote no on the millage on a school so that it fell into complete disrepair. This went on for 10 years. Married property owners are the most important voters for our country ,thinking " what is best for our country so our families do well. Families doing well cause a strong country. etc.
DeleteI do not think that Mr. Day was overly harsh. His response describes the situation like it is. He also answered like a man. Most women have hooked into the lies of the feminist movement. At twenty years old, this girl has no clue to real life. She is still stuck in the Prussian school system model that equates intelligence with academic ability. She believes the lie that men and women are equal. I feel sorry for her. She might not wake up soon enough to realize that she had been scammed.
ReplyDeleteWhile there are exceptions to the rule, most women want children, and the closer they move toward the 40's the more this reality sets in. This is not my conjecture, but observation. Almost all of the new mothers who went back to work after the birth of their child cried leaving that child for the first time. While I am sure it is possible that a guy out there has, I never observed one. When a new mother brings her child to church for the first time, it is the young girls who are interested in the child. The boys are just mildly curious.
While both men and women give examples of the Peter Principle, Women manage differently than men. They wanted control. The men usually preferred the power.
We have been deceived as to what "intelligence" is as well as what "education" is. "Intelligence" is much more than getting good grades or having a good memory. It also includes adaptability, ability and capacity to acquire knowledge, capacity of reason and abstract thought, being about to connect the dots of information, evaluate and assess properly, and have original, productive and useful ideas. Education is not obtaining a diploma, certificate or degree. It is not passive. A school setting is not needed to learn.
God has already defined a godly women. It is in Proverbs 31.
Something else that neither he nor his fans consider is that many women do not marry and/or cannot have children. Are they supposed to join a convent? Kill themselves? Pride cometh before the fall, and he is reeking of it.
ReplyDeleteThere is not a single thing in his response that I disagree with. Harsh, maybe. But he's right, and it's time someone started saying the truth, instead of worrying about all the touchy-feely nonsense that has, in part, been responsible for the decline of society.
ReplyDeleteThe reason this young lady challenged Vox, was not to hear a “fair” response, but to hear a “Vox” response. She got that, so there is nothing unfair about Vox being Vox. If I ask a cow to bark, then I’m being unfair to the cow.
ReplyDeleteI'm happy to say I was raised by a dad (in the 50's) who thought his daughters could do anything, and I have successfully competed in a "man's" job, as well as raised a child and have a 46 year marriage to a man who isn't threatened by a woman. I was surprised to discover there were plenty of men who weren't as mechanically inclined as I am - and when I went to college I had professors who openly told me I should be in some secretarial course. They were wrong...
ReplyDeleteMr. Vox appears to be a throwback.
I don't think anyone should get preferential treatment; I had to keep my job through hard work; but I saw many less competent men promoted just because they were men,not because they knew anything. I got promoted because I could do the job, sometimes to the men's surprise. Guess I think that should be the criteria for everyone; not race or gender.
2nd Corinthians 11:3
ReplyDeleteBut I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
New King James Version
I have been reading this blog for a long time and enjoy it very much. Unfortuntely I found today's post quite sickening. What a mean,horrible man! I hope this young lady has the sense to recognize him for the troll he is. I would hardly call him a "libertarian genius"! Having worked in healthcare for over 20 yrs and raised two kids, I have had the misfortune of seeing way too many kids being poorly raised by parents who didn't want to have kids. Not every woman wants or needs to have kids. Not having kids doesn't make her irrelevant at all. And to call men irrelevant?? I am a firm believer that fathers are every bit as essential in the upbringing of kids as mothers. Whether this young woman becomes an engineer or not, kudos to her if she knows she doesn't want kids BEFORE having them and resenting it. There are plenty of kids in this world to maintain the species! There is no great loss if some women wisely know they are not cut out for the demanding, life-long responsibilities of motherhood! I love this blog but that man is a misogynistic troll!
ReplyDeleteMy take on that young woman? I think she needs a BIG attitude adjustment. She works hard to get good grades - I congratulate her - but so do a lot of others. She is just about demanding you to hire her because why? She works hard?
ReplyDeleteGuess what? I would hire her as a temp.
Let her see what the "real working world" is all about. If she thinks she is so wonderful, let her start her own company. She won't know what hard work is until she does. Let's see if she would want to keep employees that carry a big chip on their shoulders. Maybe, just maybe when she grows up and realizes there are thousands upon thousands of women just like her, she should hire a few of them for HER company. She should also know the world is filled with people like Mr. Day. and get over it because she'll never change them.
I'm a women, I worked in a man area and I WOULD NEVER accept to '' be moved into some sort of management or marketing position''
ReplyDeleteI've met a lot of women in their 40's and 50's that do the exaect same thing as men and nobody will never think about moving them to more ''womenly'' jobs.
Maybe she should not have write to him, cause he obviously don't care, but he is WRONG.
Women can work as good as men. When doing an internship at Pratt and Whitney, I've been told by the manager that he would rather hire a women to fo the job because they tend to be more perfectionnist and do a better job.
I really like the way you live, I understand most of your opinions, and sometimes, agree. But on this one, all I can say is that what he said was not true at all.
As soon as a woman can work as good as me in my field I'd be wondering if I was slacking in doing my job...Every woman I have come across in my field got there by preferential treatment...
DeleteIs that bitterness peeking through you pliers there lineman. EVERY woman in you field. Could it be that you were raised to think of your job as MAN'S work, and your fragile manhood can't take the fact that a woman could do your job? Instead of being so general about ALL of anyone, take a real look at why you feel that way.
DeleteOne thing I haven't seen mentioned is infertility.
ReplyDeleteMr. Vox's premise is that females are here just to procreate, the ones that don't are useless. So, which neat little category box would be checked off for the women/families who *want* to have children, but are unable to? Are those folks worthless as well? I'd hazard a guess someone who's had up to a dozen miscarriages is made of some pretty strong stuff, losing a baby/child is fairly brutal.
In my smaller high school, among some folks I've kept up with from my graduating class, I've seen an inordinate amount of fertility issues, with more than a few needing to resort to IVF and other surgical needs in order to conceive/carry a child. It may be due to environment (because, you know, GMO's are safe and all *snort*) or just plain genetics, but still. These aren't even 'older' people, just folks in their early 30's. Which may have been old maid status in my grandmother's time, but my grandmothers were still having babies well into their 40's (one had her last baby at... 44yo in the 50's) .
Vox is right; war is the next step for these cultures. It is wrong to use our Christian morals as an overlay for understanding these cultures. We understand it is wrong and why. They only understand that daughters are a burden to them and sons are desirable and they commit murder to not have daughters. That is why the sons do not value women. Why would you expect them to "control themselves" when their parents are murderers?
ReplyDeleteThese people are not smart enough (yes, I said and believe it) to see the effects of their female infanticide. They only think of "now". Their government is just fine with it, they will have a standing army of available unmarried men to go to war with. Their poorer male populations will not be able to reproduce. Both of these are goals socialist and communist governments open push.
sidetracksusie
I totally agree with him....and I am a woman saying so. The young woman writing this letter is immature and very confused about life in general...not to worry though...she will eventually wake up to it if she intends to survive in this world.
ReplyDeleteAs a software engineer of some 25 years in the computer business, I can tell you that engineering is hard. It's hard and you had better pay attention to what you are doing down to the tiniest equal sign ('='). Women are actually geared to learn math because it's mostly intuitive. However, once you get a mathematics degree, it's the practice, the application of mathematical skill, that the men seem to excel at more easily, because they inner driven to achieve it. Women have a harder role to fulfill, because we carry, care for, and bear the children. And wanting a career of some kind and then trying to be a mom at the same time -- the reality of the biological imperative, life on this planet, marriage, children. Ladies, life ain't perfect, for anyone. So choose your path carefully. An idealogy can be cold comfort when you are getting older and wanting to cuddle grandkids.
ReplyDeleteWhen the "young woman" who wrote that uninspired, off-the-rack letter has made her own rent payments on time for a year, I'll listen to her without a smirk on my face.
ReplyDeleteWhen Vox writes another piece, I'll read it. His logic is so "Mr. Spock-onian" that I just can't resist it.
This clash is just too delicious. Encore!
Just Me
Harsh, but true. I can't decide if I'm more amused or annoyed at the folks who are reading into his writings all kinds of things that just aren't there rather than addressing what actually is.
ReplyDeleteVox Day is Theodore Beale. He has designed video games, written fantasy novels with a religious theme, a criticism of atheism, and several long-running blog columns. His devotion to America is such that he moved to Italy a few years ago, where he continues to write.
ReplyDeleteI'm sure he thinks he's very intelligent. As the saying goes, though, "If you have to tell someone you're classy (or smart, or ethical, etc.), you probably aren't." I'm not sure how stating things as facts when one has no evidence and sweeping generalizations qualifies as intelligence, education or logic. Just because he states opinions that agrees with others, doesn't make him right.
There are women in many scientific fields who have made profound contributions to the world (partial list not included in the interest of brevity). There are women in every field who have contributed to society - some single, some married, some with children. And to say that the women who have devoted their lives to Christ as nuns are "as unimportant to society as the average man" is just wrong.
My understanding of God is that he is a kind and loving Father who gives us all abilities and challenges. My job is to find and follow his will, using those abilities (parable of the talents, anyone?), and not to belittle, judge or condemn anyone else for the path He puts them on, unless that person is hurting someone else. Your understanding is your own. Of course, Vox Day is right about one thing. I really don't care what he thinks of me or my path. I grew up in a tough part of the country, where people had to work hard to get by and cooperate with others to get ahead. Vox Day would have been marked out as a mannerless windbag. He seems to be a pale imitation of Robert Heinlein, who was the real deal in SF renaissance/patriots.
Thank you for the opportunity to post comments, Patrice.
And Patrice, your opinion?
DeleteYou know, Mr. Vox reflects what I've experienced. I worked in an office job for a short time, and let me tell you, those women were underhandedly vicious! Sure, they're nice to your face or give you advice (in a very condescending way), but they'll do what they can to bring you down if you don't belong in their clique. The same thing happens in retail where I've worked for many years. The men were much easier to deal with as they have this 'live and learn' attitude, including the seemingly rude ones. You would have to do something truly outrageous before you're kicked out. More often than not, men play fair. There are exceptions of course, but it didn't take long for them to be obvious. Its like whenever a woman gets a hold of a little bit of power, she goes berserk. I honestly HATE female bosses!
ReplyDeleteI don't think this man was saying that EVERY woman must marry and have kids, but that it has been the NATURAL inclination for thousands of years. I honestly believe this young woman WILL make a 180 in ten years. Statistically, it is most likely inevitable. She seriously needs an attitude adjustment, and she got the harsh response she deserved.
I've had the opposite issue with my dreams. I've always wanted to be a wife and mother, but have been constantly told I should pursue a career instead, even by my father. THAT'S NOT WHAT I WANTED! Sure, I can be anything, BUT THAT! At least, not at first. Well, looks like nobody's getting their wish now. I'm unemployed after working dinky jobs for several years after college (where I barely passed, but not because I'm stupid. I've learned a ton of things on my own), and I'm hitting my thirties as a still single woman without children. Everybody happy now? My father believes that children are poverty (gee, love you too DAD). My heart honestly broke when he said that.
To all you smart women who were offended by Vox, well, you unwittingly also reflected what I've experienced. Come rub all that success into this bumpkin's face a little more, will ya? I was the one who wasn't wanted because everyone wanted my mother to pursue a career too even though she didn't want to. I think she was the only one who was honestly excited when she was pregnant with me, judging by what she told me. She never got to do what she actually wanted, and now it looks like I won't either.
Sorry, this is just hitting a real sore spot for me. Its incomprehensible for me that anyone wouldn't want children, and personally, I believe that stems from how those people were raised aka they're selfish. I've only known a handful of people who didn't want children for more legitimate reasons. I've been pushed and pulled into so many directions for so long that I now see every other pursuit as empty. All that other crap doesn't matter, all that really matters is being wanted and know that you're loved by your own flesh and blood. Mom understood that, but even she was under pressure to push me in another direction. I won't even go into the interesting relationship she had with her own mother. Talk about polar opposites.
I'm also getting a little tired of everyone feeling sorry or upset with me because I'm not successful. I WOULD be successful if I had been allowed to pursue more home-oriented things. I would probably have the family I've always wanted by now. I was thankful for Mom always being on the lookout for a guy for me though she had to be low-key about it. Too bad she wasn't successful. What's really strange is that I think God keeps tripping me up whenever I go the wrong way, and its probably why I'm unemployed now. I've understood what he wanted for me for a long time, but was too scared to grasp it even though my desires MATCHED his.
(to be continued...)
apply to be a foster parent.you will love it and you will save kids who desperately need saving.
Deletedon't be mad at God. it is a fallen world.
deb harvey
(Continued...)
ReplyDeleteI know I might make a few people mad here, but career oriented girls ought to be the exception rather than the rule. Despite wave after wave of feminist movements, most girls I know STILL want to be wife and mothers the most, job or no job. If only the world would encourage it more and encourage it to be in the context of marriage. One girl I worked with professed this desire to her boyfriend, not as one of the things she wanted to do but THE thing she wanted to do, and he LAUGHED, that's right, LAUGHED in her face! Its become an expectation now around here for the girl to become the steady breadwinner (aka take care of the guys. How's THAT for slavery?). Girls usually can't say no to that because they're often unmarried when they start having kids, and the father is the more intermittent figure even if they're living together. So much for providing a stable home. Careers and college educations are far more important after all! (Sarc) The guy is just there to provide the sperm and entertainment. A real love-hate relationship right there.
This is the world we've created. Self fulfillment over sacrifice for the future. This may not be what everyone sees, but that's what I've observed In my little part of the world (in case you haven't realized it yet, I do live in a semi-ghetto. It wasn't like that when I was younger). All those women's rights and all those other 'rights' hasn't done one bit of good in it. All it did was break up families and made people more selfish than before, as if my parents' generation weren't selfish enough. This is absolutely devastating for someone like me. I guess I'm just an acceptable loss, huh?
If this rant didn't make any sense, that's okay. I know its all over the place, but its late where I am and I'm very tired. I just think the holier-than-thou attitudes needed to be brought down just a notch and everyone take a second look at what this guy wrote. He's not as heartless as he first appears to be and was just being realistic. I wish more people would do that rather than worry about stupid feelings or offending someone. Can't have a debate otherwise.
~Lily~
In looking at Vox Day's website, I found his June 5, 2012 column, wherein he explains his views on the following:
ReplyDelete1. How does depriving girls of an education benefit women?
2. How does raising girls with the expectation that their purpose in life is to bear children benefit women?
3. How does throwing acid in their faces when they demand independence from men benefit women?
4. How do honor killings benefit women?
5. How does stoning rape victims benefit women?
6. How does female genital mutilation benefit women?
7. How does letting women die rather than giving them an abortion benefit women?
It seems that each of these items, with the exception of #5, have a beneficial effect for women.
Or this, from February 21:
"The fact that women may wish to work and are very capable of working no more implies that they should always be encouraged to do so anymore than the fact that men may wish to rape and are very capable of raping means that they should always be encouraged to do so. The ironic, but logically inescapable fact is that encouraging men to rape would be considerably less damaging to a society than encouraging women to enter the workforce en masse. "
This isn't brilliant. It isn't even logical. It's certainly doesn't fit into any definition of Christian that I'm aware of.
Just for a point of reference: Most of the arguement posted here (can't address a lot of what you referenced that is unique to Islam) is about the special treatment women and minorities get. 95% of federal grants to go to school goes to women and minorities. The system (the entire system that the government exerts control over) was set up to dole out free stuff to women and minorities. So when you look at the comments and decide to select out specific things to support the notion they are trying to deprive women of an education you need to understand that what most/all are saying is stop handing out "free stuff" under the guise that it is "equality". The purpose, the whole reason for being for groups claiming that women and minorities are discriminated against is to get free stuff. Fine! We get it! You can coerce the federal and state governments to tax the crap out of the rest of us and hand it to you. But don't get on your high horse when one of us poor shlubs dares to point out the obvious to you. Yes indeed you have the absolute right to be equal and go into any career field you want now stop asking for free stuff and special treatment and take responsibility for yourself. And YES I am Christian but I still don't want to have to give you free stuff just because you are the squeaking wheel and do it so well that you have been getting free stuff for a couple generations now!!!! And before you reply all incensed with rightful indignation about how you worked for what you got and took no handouts understand that if that is true then this doesn't apply to you and your outrage would look kind of like you really are looking for special treatment.
DeleteIf your comment is in reference to mine, at 11:44pm - No. You are wrong. The original Vox Day (does anyone else think it's egotistical that his pseudonym is a play on "Voice of God"?) column is about a inter-blogger argument. Vox is demonstrating his superior intellect by providing "scientific" answers to the stated questions. It has nothing to do with your issue of "special treatment of women and minorities". Really. Go read the column.
DeleteIf your comment was meant to be stacked somewhere else, please disregard. But you might like his January 28, 2013 column, entitled, "Women Ruin Everything".
Title IX was a disaster and it truely illustrates the whole "free stuff" arguement. First let me state I am sorry, really really sorry that girls sports aren't popular and probably will never be as popular as men's sports are. But to madate from the top that "the baby must be split down the middle" in this case is rediculous. Colleges spend a lot of money A LOT OF MONEY for women's vollyball, rowing, basketball and softball. They split the sports funding baby by cutting men's sports. Let me give you a example of how unfair this is and how little it does to solve the "problem". Most schools with nursing programs have about 95% or better women in the program. Totally sexist, right? So if we applied a title IX solution to the problem we would cut nursing by 90% so that you kept the 5% women and 5% men. Does this make any sense??? It is not as though before title IX there were millions of women clamoring to play volley ball, this was and is all about the scholarships. I get it! They should have looked at that problem and evened out the scholarships by gender. OOOPS! In most colleges women get most of the scholarships and grants alread even before title IX. Geee! Who could have seen that coming? But what the hell we will destroy men's sports in the name of equality even though it made everything less equal. I can't speak for Vox I can only say that in my opinion women's lib was taken over by groups with their own agenda and they actually harmed women (and men too). And government sponsered affirmative action programs are nothing more then government sanctioned discrimination programs that once implemented go on for ever and never really seem to fix anything. So ask yourself if you knew a doctor who only made it into medical school because of their gender or race and only graduated because the school doesn't dare kick out someone of their gender or race would you feel good about them making life or death decisions for YOU? Worse is if someone of the wrong gender or race who would have been an excellent doctor is unable to become a great doctor. I could make this a lot longer list of the problems these programs and efforts have created but I am late for a college woman's rowing competition and you know how crowded they get...
DeleteHi, Anon 6:12. I see that you feel pretty strongly about Title IX. Would you be willing to consider some facts? First, the act wasn't about scholarships. It's a portion of the Educational Amendments of 1972, and it states, in part, "No person in the United States shall, on the basis of sex, be excluded from participation in, be denied the benefits of, or be subjected to discrimination under any education program or activity receiving federal financial assistance..." Simple. It ended up having a major effect on high school and collegiate athletics, because that's where the most glaring examples of funding inequity were.
DeleteI also disagree with your statement that women's sports aren't as popular as men's sports. Every year, there are more and more women who can now participate in sports and enjoy the lifelong benefits that structured training and competition can provide. It's true that women's sports don't produce as much revenue as certain men's sports. But I don't think making money should be a criteria for high-school and collegiate athletics. I know it can be, but I also think that focus on profit directly leads to situations like the ones at Penn State.
Your example of 'Title IX nursing' is logically flawed. Public nursing schools do not discriminate against male students. Anyone who meets the entrance standards can enroll. Cutting nursing by 90%? Mathematically wrong. Title IX, as it plays out in athletics, requires equal opportunities for participation. That means one behemoth team can't suck up all the funding. All teams get an equal chance to train, be coached, get equipment and compete. Behemoth team has to share funding. I don't understand how that makes things "less equal".
As far as issues with affirmative action - I have my own issues with some programs. But your example (and versions of it that are repeated on this site by commenters) of a doctor who only makes it into school because of gender or race then graduating only because of gender or race? Urban myth. MCATS are pass/fail, and affirmative action doesn't apply. Reputable colleges can't graduate someone who doesn't make the minimum grades. And finally, every medical student has to pass their licensing exam. That mythical example of a brilliant student not getting in to a school because of a bozo affirmative action student getting in? Probably not. Brilliant students, regardless of gender and race, get in. The marginal students are the ones who jockey for position after the high-achievers are slotted in.
In recent years, there were complaints from white students in the University of California system; they wanted to limit the number of Asian-American students admitted because the Asians were pushing the GPA too high. That's not affirmative action, that's a great example of young people driving hard to find their American dream.
I'm glad you went to a collegiate women's rowing event. My friend tried out for the US Olympic women's team twice - it's a tough, tough sport, widely acknowledged to be one of the most demanding workouts in sport today. Hope your team won.
I suppose it is possible to read title IX and think it "only" expanded women's participation in athletics. But in fact it is implemented to limit male rights and not just in athletics. You missed the point im my example of the nursing schools that are all greater the 95% female. If you applied title IX type rules to it they would reduce the number of women in the program to 5% so that the numbers would come out fair so. Title IX is a negative law that restricts rights to create a false equality. What every college had to do was to eliminate as many men's athletic programs as they could to meet the new rules and then make up make believe athletic programs for women to meet the quotas. Rowing! Really! Are you trying to tell me that before title IX women all over the world were fighting to create rowing sports??? It was and is all about the scholorships.
DeleteInteresting you bring up high school sports. Indeed title IX has wrecked havoc in mens high school sports. An interesting story from real life. Recently some parents and girls complained that boys were playing on womens sports teams and it was unfair due to the greater athleticism of boys. The inrony was the schools and leagues hands were tied because some 20-30 years eariler women sued to get access to all male teams and seemed to think that was fair and equitable. The bottom line is they went to court in an effort to prevent boys from playing on girls teams while still allowing girls to play on boys teams. No that is the kind of equality that title IX is all about.
You got your example wrong. It wasn't "whites" complaining about Asians in California it was LIBERALS and the special interest groups who now enjoy an advantage.
You also got your statement about MCATS wrong. Every minority gets points added to their scores. It is all secret because courts have ruled against it when it was done openly. So if a white man and woman and a black man all got the same raw MCAT score and applied for a single opening the black man would get it because the added grade for blacks is higher then for women. If there were two openings the black man and the woman would get it because they both get added points. Does this make you feel good about yourself? Think it;s fair? This is why some people fear/distrust going to professionals who ONLY got their position thanks to their minority status.
I never said Title IX "only expanded women's participation in athletics". It covers anyone; it's part of the reason participation in high-school soccer is booming for BOTH genders, archery is getting into the schools, and there's funding for something other than football, so my rifle teams can actually train and compete. Your insistence about it being only about scholarships is your opinion.
DeleteI've not heard about the lawsuit you mentioned. It doesn't particularly surprise me - there are entitled people in all areas of life. One can find all sorts of examples where individuals try to twist the intent of a law for personal benefit. Title IX is no exception. It still isn't the intent of the act.
Yes, it was liberals complaining about successful Asian students - WHITE liberals. It's ill-bred, entitled WHITE students who are name-calling, race-baiting and physically threatening minority students because the WHITE students can't keep up academically. Somebody should have spanked their rears and made them earn their computers and iPhones - but that's another story. There are entitled minority kids - but they're not posting hate videos on YouTube. That I've seen. There are fools and filth in every ethnicity.
You're confusing MCAT scores with admissions procedures. The MCAT scores don't factor gender or ethnicity. If the schools do, and it's illegal, as you note, the school is wrong and should be sanctioned. If you can prove that these secret things are happening, you should report it and try to stop it.
You haven't explained how an incompetent applicant (of either gender or any ethnicity) can pass their MCATs, graduate with unsatisfactory grades and pass their licensing exam just on the basis of their skin color or gender. You state that preferential treatment is done, but it's all secret, and the courts have ruled against it. I don't see how one can logically then assume that female or minority professionals must only be in their position because of their minority status. They must have all found the illegally operating schools, or perhaps there's a secret society...
Not sure why you think my feelings enter into this, or why you must make this discussion personal. You turned a comment about Theodore Beale's professed beliefs into federal grant inequities, Title IX and an illegal minority preference program. I responded because I was curious, but you're really not willing to discuss. Every time I've explained that a specific fundamental assumption is in error, you move on to a different topic. You confuse identities and erroneously infer intention from perceived results. Repeating your opinion over and over and louder and louder still doesn't make it fact. And you persist in making personal comments. Your demonstrated intention is to make an emotion-based personal rant, and I do apologize for getting in the way of that. Please, carry on.
A couple of points. You stated title IX "ONLY" expanded women's participation in athletics. You do not understand title IX at all. It required schools to eliminate many programs a gfood example is college wrestling. What title IX did was eliminate programs people wanted and created programs no one wanted in some Orwellian attempt to create "equality". Think about it: "rowing"! Was there a demand for women's rowing? Does rowing bring out tens of thousands of adoring fans and garner national TV audiences?
DeleteThen you showed a disdain for "funding football" Ironically in most colleges football makes a bundle of money and funds the other sports. In fact football funds most of the forced/required title IX sports.
Lastly you still fail to understand my example of nursing schools. Clearly with 95% plus female enrollment nursing schools are grossly discriminatory. We need to apply a title IX solution to it. With only 5% male enrollment the new title IX (just like the old title IX) will not fix it by expanding opportunities it will fix it by limiting opportunities so we will cut 90% of the female nursing students. That is the broad ax approach title IX has taken. Would it be the right thing to do to nursing? You might argue that most men don't choose to go into nursing and that's the reason for low enrollment. Too bad! That was tried in title IX when it was obvious that most woemn simply weren't interested in playing sports as much as men were. So mens sports had to be cut to make it "equal" don'tcha know. So you might respond "but women are indeed entering into sports in college; rowing and volley ball etc.", Yes! Because there is a scholarship associated with it. That is the ONLY reason that we have budding rowing teams at colleges. I predict we will have women's rowing teams in the Olympics. Because money must be spent on womens sports even if they don't want it. The sports MUST be played even if no one wants to watch it. And by god we will be equal even if we have to go against logic and nature to do it. Well, exxept if equality harms some "protected group"...
Regarding MCAT and minorities getting into medical school:
Delete1. An Asian American with a GPA of 2.8 to 2.99 and a MCAT score of 36 to 38 has a 36.8% chance of being admitted to a U.S. medical school.
2. A White with a GPA of 2.8 to 2.99 and a MCAT score of 36 to 38 has a 40.7% chance of being admitted to a U.S. medical school.
3. An African American with a GPA of 2.8 to 2.99 and a MCAT score of 36 to 38 has a 100% chance of being admitted to a U.S. medical school.
The intent is to encourage diversity the effect is to discriminate against whites and Asians. But the far more harmful effect is that many blacks and other protected minorities are getting into medical school without the qualifications to become good doctors.
One wonders how such a personality as comes across in Mr. Day's reply fares in any practical sense. I bet left to his devices he eats two Pop-tarts and a glass of Tang for breakfast. (Or the Italian equivalent.)Unless, of course, he's found a woman mealy-minded enough to boil porridge for him too every morning. 'Genius' is *realized* potential, not an IQ number. If his reply -- or apparent history -- is an example of his 'genius', then he's not a genius.
ReplyDeletePatrice- I suspect you are surprised at how many female engineers read your blog? When I was in engineering school, I WAS treated differently. A professor gave me a lower score than one of my male cohorts, with both of us having the identical answer and when I asked about it, he replied that I had to 'achieve more to be considered equal'. I guess that is 'special treatment'?
ReplyDeleteMy mom thought I might be a secretary, my dad was a lot like Theodore.
I worked and paid my own way through engineering school, graduated, went to work as an engineer, have worked as an engineer continually while getting a couple of Masters' degrees, and am getting ready to retire as an engineer. It's a great job.
The Lord decided that I would not have children. I have a wonderful husband who works the 5th generation family farm. I married him a bit late in life, and so inherited two wonderful step-children; God is good indeed. And if only a few thousand people in history ever made any difference; why rail at the young woman for studying engineering? She could be doing a lot worse things, especially if only a few thousand people in history ever made a difference.
Perhaps a bit of jealousy exists on Theodore's part because he 'started out in engineering' but didn't 'have the aptitude'? Perhaps if he seasoned his work with a bit of humility he would have a bigger following.
I was a National Merit Scholar, have earned a few patents and been recognized by NASA for outstanding contributions, but certainly am not, by definition, 'more intelligent' than every else one around me. The person with the hubris to believe that, let alone to SAY such a thing is likely not the genius in the room.
This is my second blog post, ever: because Theodore is right: no one cares what others think in general.
People sometimes mature as they age. What is sad on the parts of so many bloggers, posters, engineers, men and women is that loving one another in Christian forebearance is so out of style.
Another great post! Thanks.
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DeleteThis man has been spending too much time with Muslims. Thank God such a man will never have any power over me or any other young women and more thanks I was born in a time of freedom instead of bondage.
ReplyDeleteIn keeping with the "Anonymous" comment questioning Mr. Vox's genuine genius-ness, may I also point out that I have trouble imagining this, as you described, "harsh" tone reflecting heartfelt Christian sensibilities when confronted. I have been meditating on 2 Corinthians 5 regarding reconciliation and found the general tenor of Mr. Vox's voice to be more clanging symbol than Jesus-ified, but I could be overly sensitive to this at present. (I'm also not a Westerner, I don't know if Mr. Voxie is, but I suspect that some of Mrs. Lewis's "charm" comes more from a different culture than my own.)
ReplyDeleteMr. Beale (Vox Day)is simply a frustrated middle age misogynist. I'm sure she made his day and sent a thrill up his leg.
ReplyDeleteHe makes a couple of good points. But lest anyone forget -
“The devil can cite Scripture for his purpose.
An evil soul producing holy witness
Is like a villain with a smiling cheek,
A goodly apple rotten at the heart”
The most important lesson the young engineer student can take away from her encounter with Ted Beale,is that some people will hate will hate other people simply because of who they are or what they look like. Be they a woman, a Muslim, a person of color, Chinese, fat, old or whatever.
I have worked in the engineering field almost all my life. In that time I have probably worked with something like 100 female engineers. In all those years and all those women there were only 2 or 3 that were what I would call good engineers. I just think that most females do not have the mechanical background throughout their lives to be good at the profession. Sadly I must also say that the young male engineers that I have worked with in the last 15 or 20 years are also sadly lacking. They have wonderful math and computer skills but have no idea what a crescent wrench is or how to use it.
ReplyDeleteThis post was an introduction to 'Gift-of-God' Beale, genius blog of which I clicked over with giggling incredulity. Then I chopped tomatoes for spaghetti (Hel-lo, expatriate Italy!) and mused idly (a woman needs an excellent education to furnish her mind as she does the housework and other drudgery), remembering my high school Latin, "Vox populi, vox populi.... voice of the people," and then, "Vox dei, vox dei.... -- vox.... day? (I refuse to capitalize it) -- voice of.... God!?" What a purulent asshole narcissist!!! Shame on you, Patrice.
ReplyDeleteI often agree with a fair portion of what Vox says but I certainly don't like the way he says it. Vox is a jerk and I am sorry to see you re-post him on your blog. I am very disappointed.
ReplyDeletePatrice, never did hear your opinion on this.
ReplyDeleteLove you, love this blog, but, man this was a flippin' PAINFUL post. It brought every painful memory of abuse up to the surface and threw it back in my face.
Interestingly, my middle school girl did read the post. (Curious about why mom's ears were venting steam.) Her response? "The writer appears to have a narcissistic personality and is a megalomaniac. That's someone who thinks they're better or above everyone else." From the mouth of babes.
There is often a smattering of fact to old adages which brings me to this; sometimes the truth hurts...
DeleteI think he is a arrogant ass.
ReplyDeleteFrankly he pissed me off for all of the reasons your readers have stated already. I am a single mom, divorced due to my ex's love of the ability to self medicate himself from reality. If MEN would behave/work/relate as MEN then WOMEN would not HAVE to step up and do the job of both so often in this society. Sadly I see many males in my own generation and those behind me struggling to find their roles and lacking the mentors (other than those presented by Hollywood) to teach them.
ReplyDeleteIs it really true that only men self medicate? Is it really true that men never have to step up and do the job of both so often in society? Where do you live or are you blind?
DeleteThe 20 year old student was critical of VOX. VOX was critical of her. So if men and women are now equal, what's the problem? Oh! A guy picked on a gal...
ReplyDeleteMuch of VOX's reply could be a learning moment for any young student.
Montana Guy
You got it 100% right. Those who think everyone that disagrees with them are dripping with hate generally feel that way about anyone who disagrees with them. I don't agree with everything VOX said but I do agree the young woman took the first cheap shot.
DeleteMaybe Vox never considered she might be a lesbian???
ReplyDeleteWhere did Vox get his figures ? I went to high school with ten girls who went on to study engineerin g. ALL of them went on to become 'real' engineers and they are all still working. My younger cousin is an engineer as well. When I asked her, about 95% of the women in her graduating class are still working in the field. Am I reading theletter wrong or did he imply that women should not have the vote ? In 2013 ?
ReplyDeleteSome of these replies drip with hate. They leave me agape with the want of any of the Christian 'agape' their writers pretend to live.
ReplyDeleteI can only hope Vox goes back to the true calling of men, doing what they are really good at, and clearly what God intended them to do: opening pickle jars and lifting heavy objects. Leave the writing to the more intelligent gender.
ReplyDeleteSo I haven't had a chance yet to read all of the replies, but here is my reaction:
ReplyDeleteDisclaimer: I'm a guy. I changed my mind about what I wanted to do for various reasons over the past couple decades.
She's 20 and thinks she knows what she wants to do. He has generic opinions about what women will want later. Why shouldn't she study what she wants now? The alternative (his suggestion?) is for her to do nothing for the next ten years because she might change her mind? I say study what sounds good now and if you change your focus later, so be it; do that when it comes up.
Pretty much anything you study in your 20's can be used to your advantage later in life even if you take a different career path, even if that 'career path' is one of housewife/homemaker. The only waste is if you completely disregard what you already know when you change your focus.
I've just got to laugh at both of them. They are both such narrow-minded opinionated people. God bless them.
ReplyDeleteI chose my future career in 1st grade. In 8th grade we had an assignment to write about a potential future career but not the one we currently thought we wanted. So I chose library science, knowing I'd never give up on my first choice. I did go to college, I did major in nursing, and I've just retired after spending 47 years in nursing. I raised 3 children, I voted in every election, and I never regretted choosing nursing.
ReplyDeleteWhen my daughter decided to change her major from music to surveying in college she was told by the head of the surveying department he didn't want women in the program, they never finish. Well, he chose the wrong women to tell that to. Not only did she finish, she was #1 in the class. She was recently chosen as Wisconsin's Young Surveyor of the Year. She has 2 children, is a good mother, and a good wife.
This young woman might stick with engineering, she might not. But she has a right to pursue any career she wants and is capable of. She will in all liklihood turn out to be a nice person than Vox.
The department head may well have done your daughter a favor. He simply used reverse psychology something most parents and teachers employ to push young people to excel.
DeleteSo what you are saying Anon June 11 7:07am, is the only reason her daugter was a success was because a man tricked her into it? If he really did use reverse psychology, he was extreamly reckless. Since he did not know the young lady's personality, how did he know it would work and not discourage her from the field? If it was his intent to discourage her if she did not rise to his challenge, then a truly gifted and/or hardworking person could have been left out.
DeleteThe child came to him to learn. Why not just teach without the comments? How does it hurt a classroom to have a female? Does it make his job harder? No.
Twenty-six years ago I proudly told my Dad of my goal to be the 1st female supervisor in my "chosen field." I worked harder than most males because women were new in this work environment. I wanted "them" to know I was capable of pulling my weight. Patiently I waited "my turn." The carrot was continuously dangled in front of me as male after male after male (majority with less seniority, qualifications and drive) was promoted over me. They weren't ready for a female to enter the hallowed halls of the good ole boys club. It sucked.
ReplyDeleteI reached my goal without threats of EEO complaints, etc. It's a bittersweet accomplishment, my Dad died before seeing me "make it." In a nutshell, it Doren't mean diddly the gov't has EEO laws. Most professions, men still get the gravy, women clean up after them & wash the dishes...
OK, it makes sense that women are responsible for having babies. They're the only people who can! But seriously: Who really believes there is a shortage of babies on this planet? The more pressing problem for society and the planet right now is environmental sustainability, and she should be applauded for choosing to work on that instead!
ReplyDelete